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Matt and Sean talk about parasites in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’, season 3 episode 5, “Through the Lens of Time.” Does the hard sci-fi story make up for the soap opera character development?
Matt and Sean talk about parasites in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’, season 3 episode 5, “Through the Lens of Time.” Does the hard sci-fi story make up for the soap opera character development?
- (00:00) - - Intro
- (02:13) - - Today's Episode
- (03:43) - - This Time in History
- (08:31) - - Episode Discussion
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Creators and Guests
What is Trek In Time?
Join Sean and Matt as they rewatch all of Star Trek in order and in historical context.
Sean Ferrell: In this episode of Trek in Time, we're talking about ultimate evil or something like that. Welcome everybody, to Trek in Time, where we're taking a look at every episode of Star Trek in chronological Stardate order. We are currently in season three of Strange New Worlds because Strange New Worlds is dropping even as we speak. So we have taken a pause on our normal order. We're almost all the way through season two of the original series. We've already talked about Enterprise, a good portion of Discovery, moved on to Strange New Worlds, then into the original series. But now we've paused that and circled back because new episodes in season three are currently being released. And who are we? Well, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi. I write some stuff for kids. And with me, as always, is my brother Matt. Matt is that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. Matt, how are you today?
Matt Ferrell: I'm doing well, how about you?
Sean Ferrell: I'm doing all right. We normally record this a very regular pattern on the weekends. We have an appointed schedule this week. We're not on that appointed schedule. Nope. Throw up a little pitter patter of this chitter chatter. We normally like to circle back on what you all have had to say recently about our previous episodes. However, this week because of when we're recording previous episode is tomorrow. Talk about on topic for this week's discussion of through the Lens of Time. That's right, 25th overall, fifth of the third season, released today, August 7, 2025. Through the Lens of Time. Indeed. We are talking to you about our last episode which doesn't exist yet. We're putting the effect before the cause Matt, what do you think about that? Then we'll move on to yes, that noise in the background, what could it possibly be? Why, it's the read alert. It's time for Matt to tackle the yes, this is the future, AI generated description of the episode. Take it away, Matt.
Matt Ferrell: Through the Lens of Time on Star Trek Strange New Worlds features Chapel and Korby exploring ancient ruins on a planet where they uncover a dark secret related to immortality and the nature of evil, with potential implications for human evolution. The episode delves into the consequences of eternal life, hinting at the horrors that might come with it, and explores the concept of ancient alien technology, specifically one that might grant immortality. The episode also introduces a connection to future events in the original series as Dr. Korby's character is linked to a future storyline where he transfers his consciousness into a robot.
Sean Ferrell: This episode, Through the Lens of Time, directed by Andi Armaganian and written by Onitra Johnson and Davy Perez. Released on August 7, 2025. Strange New Worlds, of course, was created by Akiva Goldsman, Alex Kurtzman and Jenny Lumet. Based on Star Trek by Gene Roddenberry and stars Anson Mount, Ethan Peck, Jess Bush, Christina Chong, Celia Rose Gooding, Melissa Navia, Babs Olusanmokun, Rebecca Romijn and Martin Quinn. On this show, we always like to set the context of when an episode dropped. So when we're talking about things in the past, it's exciting because we're talking about things. Oh, remember when or this was before I was born. How crazy. But now we're talking about things that are happening now. Like in Spaceballs. Now. Now. Is that when is this. This is now. You're seeing now. With that in mind, the number one song right now. Why, it's from K Pop Demon Hunters. It's the song Golden. And Matt, if I know anything about you, it's that you watched this, loved this, and can't wait to sing this. Take it away, Matt. Great as always. As somebody speculated in the comments a few weeks ago, yes, we can't share Matt's beautiful voice because of copyright infringement. Thanks for nothing, Netflix. And number one in the film. Why this week, yet again? And I found myself thinking this morning, Matt, when we do our conversations about the original series, we're always kind of laughing and rolling our eyes at. It's always the same three or four movies that just keep resurfacing and just stay in the number one spot for forever. It feels like Gone with the Wind and Look who's Coming to Dinner and Valley of the Dolls are just like on rotation when we're talking about the original series. And that's born in part because when we talk about the original series, we're not talking about them in broadcast order. We're talking about them in Stardate order, which is effectively shooting order.
So when we talk about the original series, we're talking about things completely jumping back and forth in time from production standpoint. So we see the same movies popping in and out and replacing each other. But right now, we're watching these things. Yes, as they were intended, as they were produced, they're putting them out in the order that we're supposed to watch them and talk about them in. So we might be talking about the Fantastic Four First Steps for the entire length of this season for Strange New World, maybe, possibly. Or we may be talking about the number two movie right now. The Bad Guys 2, if it does really well in the theaters, maybe we'll talk about the number three movie, the Naked Gun, the reboot with Liam Neeson.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: And Pamela Anderson. Do you know I didn't recognize her in the trailer.
Matt Ferrell: I did not either. And I'm actually looking forward to seeing this movie. I love the original Naked Guns and Airplanes and all that kind of stuff. So I'm looking forward to this one. Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: In the spirit of we need more goofball comedies out there because Hollywood moved away from them for a good while. Go out there and see this movie. Let's support it. Let's tell Hollywood we want more goofball stuff.
Matt Ferrell: You brought up Spaceballs. You know, they're coming out in a new one.
Sean Ferrell: The sequel isn't going to be out. I believe 2027 is when they talked about that.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah. A couple years away.
Sean Ferrell: So that's a couple of years away. Fingers crossed that Mel Brooks is still with us and able to enjoy it. The man is now officially not just the oldest man in the world as a character, he is officially the oldest man in the world world. And finally, number four in the top movies right now with a weekend gross still in double digits, 14 million, with a total gross of 320 million in four weeks. I'm very happy to see the success of the number four film, Superman. And when it comes to streaming programs, we always try to compare apples to apples. So when we talk about the original series, we're talking about other shows that were broadcast on major networks. When we talked about Discovery or Strange New Worlds, we talk about streaming programs because that's the best comparison. So when we take a look at Strange New Worlds and compare it to shows like the Hunting Wives, Dexter Resurrection and Untamed, which Untamed had been at the number one spot for the past three weeks. So a pretty good showing. Even though it's at number three this week, it had a good long run. But Hunting Wives has supplanted it in the number one spot. And in the news once again. We're talking about things now, so sorry to say some of these news headlines are going to be setting the context of questions around the ethics of government during Trump's administration. Yes, Trump delayed a Medicare change after health companies donations. President Trump posted talking points provided by one firm that donated millions. And his administration delayed a change on coverage that could have hurt the company. The third week in a row where we've shared a headline that is focused entirely around Trump.
Matt Ferrell: Drain the swamp.
Sean Ferrell: On now to our conversation about this newest episode, I've said it before, Matt, I'll say it again. The monster movie formula is something that modern Trek seems to be leaning very heavily into. And I stopped myself and thought about it, and I think it goes back to the original series. I think when we think about some of the earliest episodes, they effectively were monster movies. So you end up with, we go to a planet and there's a vampire. We go to a planet and there's a kind of wizard. We go to a planet and there's dark, macabre things happening. So me noticing that as a trend in current modern Trek, and we talked about it for the first time while we were watching Enterprise, it's not always as on the nose as this one is where it is. Just, this is a full blown. I mean, did you see what I saw in this episode? This was Event Horizon.
Matt Ferrell: Yes. I didn't. I didn't make that connection, but it kind of is Event Horizon.
Sean Ferrell: It's Event Horizon. It is, absolutely. Oh, we found a doorway into a space that's beneath space that unlocks a universe of absolute chaos and evil. Which is a quote from the movie Event Horizon, a movie I did not enjoy. So I found myself as I was watching this one, right down to the Sam Neill-esque, his eyes have exploded out of his head. Medical assistants back on the ship with his eyes missing, but clearly being creepy. I found myself thinking, okay, we have some fans of Event Horizon now on the writing in the writing room of Star Trek and they're doing their take on it. And I found myself in a similar vein as we were last week, where I found myself thinking, okay, I'm engaged in the moment and entertained. But I wasn't quite sure how it was landing for me. So I'll start there. How did you feel as you watched this episode? How did this one land for you?
Matt Ferrell: I'm gonna tell you right now, Sean, I loved this episode. Loved it. The pattern this show is in this season. I don't like. Good episode. Bad episode. Good episode, bad episode. Nuts. Good episode. Which means next week. What's going to happen next week, Sean? Yeah, I like it. I'm liking this show, when they pick a genre and emulate that genre. And I did not pick up on Event Horizon. I hated that movie with a passion. Oh, God, horrible movie. But what resonated with me on this one, it reminded me of Dark Matter. Have you watched that show on Apple tv?
Sean Ferrell: I have not seen that show, no.
Matt Ferrell: It's all about dimensions. It's all about. They, you go into this box and you walk down a hallway, and you go to a different door, and you're in a completely different dimension. Go back in the hallway, walk a little further, open a different door. The realm they were in felt like that for me. I was like, oh, they must have watched Dark Matter and like, that show. I didn't pick up on the Event Horizon stuff, but you are 100% correct. For me, I enjoyed the horror aspect of it. It was kind of. I don't think they needed to show as much of two gaping holes looking straight into your soul as much as they did. They could have gone a little lighter on the gruesome aspect of it, but I thought it was very effective. They really did a good job, I think, building up the empathy for this character over several episodes instead of just introducing somebody new in an episode and then immediately killing them off.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah, we didn't have the red shirt effect in this one.
Matt Ferrell: There was no registered effect. It was a character we had started to get to know, we were kind of liking. He's kind of charming. And then, whoosh. Just like, pulling the rug out. Shows how dangerous this kind of stuff is. I really appreciated that they took the time to set this up over several episodes for him. The love story aspect, the love triangle stuff that we've been talking about, how, like, it feels kind of soap opera. It was there in this one, but in a much more palatable way, because it wasn't. I don't know, it wasn't in your face. It was like, subtext around things that were going on with the pairings and how things were working with different groups and different people. It didn't feel so on the nose as the previous episodes. So for me, the stuff that was the trappings that the, the writers that do Discovery, in Strange New Worlds, the trappings they put themselves into that drive us all nuts, I thought was diminished on this one. I thought they kind of kept themselves in check for the most part. And I thought the horror element, the mystery about what was happening, what's happening to the young guy, how are they gonna get out of the situation? It kept me very. It was very compelling. Super hard sci fi. I was just enjoying it. I had a good time the entire episode.
Sean Ferrell: Mm. I found myself a bit distracted by some of the soap opera elements that they really. It felt like there were some footnote moments in the episode that I felt like, okay, what is this here for? And I felt like it was there for keeping the audience reminded of the existence of the storyline. So it's like, okay, what if somebody doesn't know La'an and Spock kissed? So they'll have this sort of awkward moment in the hallway where Chapel brings it up and you get this kind of toodly, toodly, toodly fast forward of I know you've been hanging out with him for the past couple of months. Yeah, we're just having fun. Like, I didn't feel like that really landed in a place where I felt like, okay, was that necessary in this moment with that they have that conversation? And it felt a little bit like talking directly to the audience because it sort of felt like the things Chapel said didn't line up with any kind of real need on her part. So it felt like, okay, this is only for me as an audience member. And that I felt was a little distracting. Not that it was the elevator scene where Spock and Chapel are in the elevator and having a quasi uncomfortable talk. That felt like, okay, this organically makes sense that they're having a conversation in this way because Spock is doing his Spock thing. If we're not in a relationship and I have nothing to say to you in this moment, I'm going to stand here silently and she kind of turns on the awkward faucet and says, oh, we're not going to talk about not talking. And he's like, I had nothing to say. And you get that kind of moment, which. That felt a little more organic and real as opposed to some of the other stuff. I also found myself a little distracted by what is supposed to be acute romantic tension between Uhura and Ortegas’ brother. I find myself thinking, like, I don't see the need for the character, any of that.
But then in this episode, his presence is key to unlocking the puzzle. So I'm like, okay, that feels a little bit like I'm seeing the machinery at work. But I felt like the episode. There were certain moments in this episode where I was like, oh, this is them doing dumb things in order to put them in the lockbox. And then once we're inside the lockbox, the real episode will begin. And I felt like that was what was happening. Clunky, clunky, clunky, right down to the. They uncover this massive structure, walk up to it, do things that make no sense from any perspective as far as, like, I'll just put my hand in this thing, let it prick my blood, put the blood like, no, none of that makes sense. And then they go in and then they're trapped. And everything then follows the logic of how would Starfleet handle the situation. So I found myself as an audience member, seeing the machinery of storytelling at work in a way that I was like, this is all kind of clunky. And then we get into it, and once we're trapped inside and get the time travel stuff, the quantum subspace stuff, I'm like, oh, here's the real.
Here's the real story.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: Which included the poor, you know, Gamble, who, you know, like you said, no red shirt effect on him. I thought that that was handled beautifully. I thought they were introducing a new permanent cast member.
Matt Ferrell: Me too.
Sean Ferrell: Here he was, eyes blown out in a moment that I was legitimately. When they pull him up to sitting, I thought, oh, he's going to have something in his eyes that's going to show that he's been inhabited by an alien entity. And instead it was eyes missing. And I was like, oh, they haven't done that before. The whole drip, drip, drip of getting him back and having the scan run and your brain is dead. Like, that was super creepy. Nicely done. I found myself, like I said, I kept thinking Event Horizon. And I thought, but they're doing a better job than Event Horizon did. They're doing the drip, drip, drip in a way that actually makes it menacing as opposed to that movie. It also, to go back to what you said, where you were thinking of a different program. I was also thinking of the movie the Gate, which is.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: About a metaphysical spiritual prison for the devil, for some malevolent force. And it is the story of a bunch of Nazis who go into this. Not the Gate, the keep. Sorry, I misspoke. Wrong movie. The Keep. Where it is. Nazis go into this fortress thinking they will find some sort of metaphysical power. It's kind of like, oh, what if the Nazis didn't run into Indiana Jones and instead they actually got a hold of the thing and it turns out it's the devil and it's this releasing of ultimate evil sort of storyline. I felt like that was in play in this. In a way that I thought they handled that storyline well as well. I found myself as an audience member looking at it and saying, like, oh, this is a prison. Very early. But I didn't mind the pace at which they came to that conclusion because I think that good writing encourages speculation on the part of the audience to forecast what's coming. And then right or wrong, you're pleased with the outcome.
Matt Ferrell: Right.
Sean Ferrell: This did that for me where it was setting up like, oh, here's what's going to happen. Oh, no, no, that didn't happen. One of the most compelling scenes that I really enjoyed, and it was a red shirt moment, was I loved when Gamble killed the security guard at the brig by reaching through the forcefield and snapping his neck. But first teasing him with the tortured comments of his mother. And I thought, well, that's first of all, creepy. It harkens back to the original series in a really interesting way, because, like, the brig looked like the brig. It was like a nice hearkening back to what the original series presented as the brig and the way a security guard would respond to something that in the real world, the security guards train. I'm not going to take the bait, but in this moment, he walks up, takes the bait, and it's a great dramatic moment of like, I'm going to snap your neck and walk through the force field, and I've got a weapon. And so from a monster movie perspective, from a metaphysical threat perspective, from a cosmic horror perspective, this felt like Star Trek introducing the Cthulhu mythos into itself, which is, I think, ultimately what Event Horizon taps into. The idea of cosmic ancient evil that may have touched races and species throughout the galaxy before, so that some are aware of it in a way. We're introduced to a new species here that is looking for its own history. And the first moment that one of those of that species sees what is through this dark portal, he freaks out and tries to flee. So something culturally has taught these people that this symbol or this idea is to be avoided. It connects to evil. And then I really enjoyed, even though there was a part of me that was like, this is kind of like a B movie at this point. But then I was also like, but I'm kind of into it. When Pike's partner, Captain Batel.
Is that her name? Hybrid.
Matt Ferrell: Hybrid Gorn Now.
Sean Ferrell: She's now a hybrid Gorn, and she sees Gamble and something genetic clicks in. I need to exterminate this. So are we setting up a potential storyline? And I think we are of this ultimate evil. We see a flicker of a computer screen at the end of this episode. Okay, ultimate evil has been released. It's possibly in the ship. It's out. Are we looking at Strange New Worlds introducing a long story arc for this season. Question mark. Which is already half over, or maybe for next season, which is what I hope.
Matt Ferrell: Mm.
Sean Ferrell: Where some kind of working together with the other species and races, including the Gorn, comes into play in order to fight off this ancient evil that nobody's really fully in tune with, except maybe in deep cultural, historical, biological ways. I really found myself engaged with the idea that, oh, the Gorn might be the ones to say, like, yeah, we can sniff this out. Because for whatever reason, the Gorn evolved to be able to defend themselves against this thing. Some pretty interesting deep storytelling seeds being planted in this one that I really enjoyed. So for me, a little clunky at the beginning, which sounded a little bit like somebody suddenly sitting there in front of you and saying, let me tell you a story. And I'm like, oh, this is kind of. I see the machinery at work and then close the door. Okay, now we're going. And I found myself thinking like, okay, as long as, as long as they hit that moment where it becomes a real logic puzzle as opposed to people doing dumb things to keep the story moving, we're going to be fine. And I felt like it got there.
Matt Ferrell: So I, I, I saw those seams as well, but it didn't bother me because I thought of, of all the ways to do it. It's like, okay, they're just setting up the story, getting the story going once we get the story going. And for me, it was when they got to the planet, I didn't have a problem with the finger prick blood thing at all. I thought that was totally fine. So for me, once they got to the planet and we got introduced to that new species, I was like, okay, here we go. Here's where the actual episode starts.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: So everything else is just exposition. This is the real thing. And I do hope this is not a storyline thread that they pull for this season. I hope it's something they leave there for next season.
Sean Ferrell: That's what I found too.
Matt Ferrell: I think it'd be because of how short the seasons are, I think it would be good to plant that seed and then let it grow until next year.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah. And to really approach it with knowing what they want to do with it, because I think that what we've seen before, and it's an interesting comparison, too, to say one of the things about this episode that I felt on a kind of visceral level where I was watching and thinking like, oh, this is kind of clunky. That's been my experience with a lot of the Original Series. To a certain degree, this felt like an Original Series pacing. Yeah. Because the Original Series constantly did the, oh, they're going to do things that don't make a hell of a lot of sense until the, okay, here's the danger. And now you've got 35 minutes of them acting logically to get out of the problem, where going to show them being idiots to get into the problem. But once they're in the problem, you're going to love it. And I found myself like, wow, this. This is Strange New Worlds actually acting quite a bit like the Original Series. And as you just said, I hope they don't pull that thread this season, because there were episodes of Next Generation early in the series where they teased at the idea of long form storytelling, introducing a threat that might be a bigger arc. And they were especially guilty of this in the first and second season where they never introduced. They introduced a threatening alien species that is a parasite that gets into your neck. And I found myself thinking, is this episode connecting to that? Is this somehow. Doubt it. A parasite that is at this stage metaphysical. But might we see connecting to that in some fashion? But my complaint about that episode of Next Gen is they never did anything with it.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, they just let it hanging. They let it tease it at the end with the sound effect that's playing. It's like, oh, they're out there. They know where we are. They're here now.
Sean Ferrell: That's the problem. They know we're here. And it's like, okay, what like. And they never did anything with it. Will Wheaton had a big problem with that. Did you know that?
Matt Ferrell: Yes, I did that.
Sean Ferrell: He complained that, like, oh, we're gonna get into long form storytelling. This is gonna be really cool. And then they never did anything with it. It. And so I'm hopeful that they don't do that here where they pull this thread too quickly, dispel it too fast. I think that they've planted something that could be a lot of fun.
Matt Ferrell: There were some things I found confusing about this parasite thing. The imagery they were showing in Spock's mind's eye when he saw the thing and kind of jumped back. And then. Or around the time where the captain's partner came in and had that fight, there were these imagery that looked kind of like, it is Gorn. It kind of looked like the Gorn, the flashes. And so I was very confused as, like, are they implying that this, when it was physical, was Gorn? Is this an offshoot of the Gorn? Which is why the captain's partner. I'm blanking on her name, why she reacted the way she did, because it could be a branch of the Gorn, kind of like the Vulcans and the Romulans. It's like, is there something. Is there a connection between these two things? Are they actually the same species? Is there something related there? And then the first thought that went to my head was, it's this parasite. And then there was the whole thing with. When she became Gorn, like, and started fighting it. And you said. You said it was like a B movie. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah. The first thing that passed in my head was, oh, my God, I hope this is not the case. Oh, my God. She's now a hybrid. Are they going to continue this with her, where she continues to become less human and more Gorn, like, And are they going to basically try to do and retcon the Gorn that Captain Kirk fought on the planet? And why it looks so different from the Gorn that we're seeing today?
Sean Ferrell: Because human DNA gets introduced through her.
Matt Ferrell: Correct. Are they making the Gorn more human? Like, so that would make sense by the time Kirk fights the Gorn. Why it looks that way. And my first thought was, please do not do that. Enterprise tried to do that with the Klingons. Please, you don't have to worry about it. It's different time periods. Just let it be. It's totally cool. So that was my only concern. And I got confused because it. Because, like, the imagery they were showing was either the same as the Gorn, or it was too close to the Gorn that it was really hard to tell.
Sean Ferrell: Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: What they were implying this thing was. Yeah. Did you pick up on that, or.
Sean Ferrell: I did, and I had. I think that what they. What I hope they're doing, what I believe they may be doing, is, again, planting seeds to explore a number of different options. One of the options is I saw the same thing you did. Like, oh, is her response a visceral reaction to another Gorn offshoot in some way? Is the Gorn reproductive process not actually how the Gorn biologically would have evolved? Were they in some way manipulated by some kind of power or entity that turned them into this nightmarish implanting of eggs into a host to have it pop out? Like, are they playing with that kind of idea that the Gorn in and of themselves shouldn't be like this? Or is the visual cue that Spock sees the way that it's. Captain Marie Batel. I want us to, like, make sure that we're naming the characters and the actresses when we can. Captain Marie Batel, who's played by Melanie Scrofano. Is this a case where she looks and sees something and says, I identify the threat? Okay, so it's a biological recognition of a threat. We saw something from Spock's perspective, is that his version of triggering at a biological level a threat and his brain just simply interprets a threat in something that looks like Gorn.
Matt Ferrell: No. So I don't think.
Sean Ferrell: I don't know about that. I want to say one more thing. We see the entity being. Lifting itself out of Gamble's body.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: To me, in that moment, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, it didn't look the same as the kind of Gorn like face.
Matt Ferrell: Yes.
Sean Ferrell: It was seen. It was different. It looked different. So to me, in that moment, I'm like, oh, they're saying there's this thing that when it is identified, may trigger the same response in different species, but the way they interpret it may be different based on, you know, you have that moment of there's a threat, how do I interpret it? And you see the Boogeyman. And then somebody else sees the same threat, but interprets it in a slightly different way, but it's still a threat. So I. Can I help? I couldn't help but wonder, are they playing with the idea that this entity is tapping into deep rooted biological fear across species so that when it is seen? Because in that moment, when Spock saw that face, he exhibited fear. His ability to withhold his emotional response was gone. He staggered back, he jumped away, and he was clearly frightened. So was that flash of a face something that was a Vulcan interpretation of what's in that chamber? And does somebody else see something slightly different, but it's still just as threatening because all the species across the galaxies galaxy have been genetically programmed to identify this as a threat. So that's where I found myself. Like, oh, are they tying this directly to Gorn, or are they just tying this to. Everybody's afraid of the Boogeyman because there really is a Boogeyman.
Matt Ferrell: Right, Right. I mean, if that's a different way.
Sean Ferrell: So it's like I found myself like, oh, I hope it's the latter. I hope it's a. Yeah, the Gorn recognize this threat, but so does a Vulcan, but so does a human, but so does like, like. And we haven't had at this point, other than the moment where the thing is coming out of Gamble. I don't know that we've seen how humans interpret it other than it was kind of like a ghost. It was like. And again, it goes back to the. Is that the programming? There's a danger. Stay away from this. And I found that really fascinating to think about as a storytelling mechanism for them to move forward with this as a. You bring in everybody together to potentially say, like, oh, we all collectively identify this as a threat. We all have to work together to face it. And will we get the opportunity to see how this thing manifests from a number of different perspectives? Because I think that could be really cool.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah, agreed.
Sean Ferrell: Wanted to bring up one last topic before we end this conversation, and it's about the Korby of it all. As has been mentioned.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: Roger Korby is a figure from the original series who appeared in what Are Little Girls Made Of? That is the story from the first season where we find Dr. Roger Korby, renowned scientist presumed dead due to a long status of missing, is discovered on a planet with a number of Android creations that he says he's able to make with the assistance of alien technology. Turns out Dr. Korby was romantically involved and engaged with Nurse Chapel. And we see in that episode the first hints of a Spock Chapel romance. The questions about what makes a human a human? And Korby is revealed to be an Android himself with aspirations of replacing all of sentient beings in the galaxy with Android bodies as a way of providing immortality, which he thinks is the fine goal in and of itself. What does it matter if you kill the the original being, if the being can continue on in some form in immortality? And here we're seeing that turned into not a character flaw, but his entire character drive. We're being given a Dr. Korby who's now been introduced. Originally in the first season, they introduced him by reputation. It became Nurse Chapel was applying for a fellowship. Then she received the fellowship and went off to study. And then when she came back this season, she's brought back Roger Korby, her now fiance. They are a couple, and we are seeing a history that was never hinted at in the Original Series as far as Spock not only interacting with Roger Korby, but getting to know him to the point where Nurse Chapel says, you guys have become friends now.
Matt Ferrell: It's all relative, Sean.
Sean Ferrell: It's all relative. And I found myself thinking back to that and was like, oh, wait a minute. As I was thinking about how do I feel about all that Retcon, I realized, is there Retcon? Because in what Are Little Girls Made Of? Kirk interacts with Korby on the planet, Nurse Chapel goes down and interacts with Korby on the planet. Spock is on the ship. Yeah.
Matt Ferrell: Yep.
Sean Ferrell: By the time Spock comes down, the Android nature of everybody has pretty much been revealed. And there's not a moment in the Original Series where, given the current storytelling they're doing building a different history. There's not a moment in the original episode where Spock would have been like, but I know Roger Korby.
Matt Ferrell: Exactly.
Sean Ferrell: So I found myself like, oh, well, well done. But I want to have a brief talk about how do you. One of the things we've talked about is, okay, you don't have to be beholden to who the original actor was. We've seen now a Jim Kirk in Strange New Worlds, who I really enjoy. I think he's doing a great job playing Kirk, and he's not playing it. Shatner Kirk. Because Shatner was Shatner. You can't be Shatner. So here we have Cillian o'Sullivan. Does it get more Irish than that? Is the question everybody's asking Cillian o'Sullivan. He's Irish and he's Irish and he's playing him as an Irishman. And that's not how the original Korby is presented. So here we have a pretty dynamic shift in what the presentation of all this is. We've seen Harry Mudd introduced, played by Dwight Schrute, for lack of a better. Rainn Wilson presenting as Harry Mudd. Quite a departure from the original actor, but not so much a departure as to say, like, oh, he's from a different part of Earth. Like, nothing that's distracting in that way. I find myself in this depiction of Roger Korby, liking this depiction, liking the actor, liking Roger Korby, liking that they're setting up some subtle tensions between, like, he and Chapel. They're playing it as a strong relationship, but he has a willful blindness toward shortcuts in the name of what he's driven to learn. And in this episode, they put it right in the center. What he wants to do is discover ways for human, for humanity, for sentient beings to avoid death. So, okay, they've planted their interesting terrain around this guy, but the depiction feels to me to be a very different character from the Original Series. And I'm just curious, do you find that distracting? Do you find it. Does it even blip on your radar? Are you just like, okay, they're doing it. They're doing a different thing with Korby.
Matt Ferrell: It doesn't blip on my radar because he was in one episode. It's like he's not a regular character. It was just this one off character. You could do whatever you want with him. It doesn't matter. To me, the one thing that does matter is the character's motivations in the Original Series, which was fits with what they're doing here. He's very cavalier and willing to take huge risks to achieve that goal. Guess what? Explains why he did what he did on the planet in the Original Series. So as long as they're true to that, it doesn't matter whether he's Irish or from someplace else or he's from China. Who cares where he's from any of that? On top of which, we know that Chapel doesn't marry him. They were engaged, and then they were not. And clearly they're setting that divide up, because you can see there's a good, solid relationship, but there's this tension between the two of them. Yeah. Of something. So they're setting up that there's going to be a breaking point in that relationship. And here it is. It's the start of that. That break. We're kind of seeing it where they're not completely in sync with each other. I like it. Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: I like the way that they're portraying it. Yeah. I thought that there was a very deftly handled moment of. Right at the end when they've figured out the way out of this prison and they're getting ready to leave, and Chapel looks over her shoulder and says, leave the artifact. And you can tell he doesn't want to leave that artifact, but he does. But if he was there by himself, he would have grabbed it and he would run. Finally, we haven't really talked about the puzzle box that they're in. Just kind of big picture. I really liked the whole. You're in different levels of quantum space. You're all in the same place, but you're not. You're seeing different aspects of the same puzzle. The things all connect through this device and emerge in one location that can be manipulated by the one who's been. The blood sample has been taken from right down to. And you mentioned Hard Sci Fi. This is. This is one of those moments where I was like, yeah, this is so. This is so science fiction that it starts to sound like technobabble magic, but it actually is real quantum physics to say there is the theoretical reality of effect preceding cause.
Matt Ferrell: Yes.
Sean Ferrell: That's a real thing. And. And I loved that it was introduced here. And it has to do with, you know, the direction of time. There's been this. I've watched fascinating science videos from PBS and other sources where they talk about the quantum mechanics of time and how time moves the direction it does simply because it does. But theoretically, it could go backwards.
Matt Ferrell: Yeah.
Sean Ferrell: And this was playing with that in a really nice way. And I really thought it was a. I think that's one of the things about this episode that stood out for me was it wasn't all here's a monster. It was here's a monster. No, it was, oh, here's quantum mechanics. Oh, here's.
Matt Ferrell: This was like, this was like the.
Sean Ferrell: Worst, scariest, multiple layers of.
Matt Ferrell: No, but like the monster, the Big Bad was this terrifying escape room. Yeah, that's essentially what it was. We were watching these characters escape a room and it was great. The whole hard sci fi aspect of that, just like I think that's part of the reason why I love this episode. It really pulled me in. It was like, holy crap, this is like nothing I've ever seen on any Star Trek episode before. And it's really fun seeing them logic their way out of this crazy quantum logic puzzle. It was a lot of fun.
Sean Ferrell: So, viewers, listeners, what did you think about this one? Jump into the comments and do let us know. And we promise next time we record an episode, we will be pulling your comments probably from two episodes. Which, considering last episode was about two episodes of Treks, means we'll be pulling your comments about three episodes altogether. So that's something for Matt and I to consider and all the choices we've made that have led us to this moment. Liking, subscribing, commenting, sharing with your friends. Those are all very super easy ways for you to support the podcast. And if you want to support us more directly, you can, you can go to trekintime.Show. Click the join button. Not only does that allow you to throw coins at our heads, we appreciate the welts. But it also gives you the opportunity to become subscribed to our spin off show Out of Time, in which we talk about things that don't fit within the confines of this program. So we talk about other sci fi, other movies, TV shows, things that have come across our path that we've really enjoyed, or in some cases, not enjoying, enjoyed. So it's fun that way too. So we hope you'll be interested in checking that out. Thank you so much everybody for taking the time to watch or listen. We'll talk to you next time.